On Enlightenment and 'Who am I'

This tracks a series of replies from wsno1wup (”W”) to a series of questions on enlightenment and Who Am I.

There is great merit in the replies but they are not for the weak hearted and may appear nilistic but are not at all on reflection.

Q: How does one know they are englightened ?

W: There is no enlightenment. No-one becomes enlightened. All questions arise threw our sense of individuality and/or separation. Separation is the ancestor of ALL searching. If you are searching, or on the 'path,” as so many love to say, you only strengthen the resolve of your own ignorance in trying to find itself.

It's nonsense. We talk of such nonsense because we operate from an identity that is compelled to believe there is some salvation in the horizon. We operate from the vehicle of ignorance while expecting to wake up from something (an identity in his or her existence) not real to begin with. Once seeing goes beyond the constraints of the individual-identity and not by way of the chaotic and incessant interpretations of the mind, then that which cannot be described or interpreted becomes clearly apparent. We want to wake up from this grand dream but the dream is an illusion.

There is no waking up from something not real to begin with. Ignorance cannot awaken from itself it can only add more ignorance.

Most do not like to here this because it leaves them with nothing to grasp or hold on too. Enlightenment is only a mental construct and as such serves as a “destination” for the mind. The mind constantly maintains and requires a target. Your question instantly implies that there is “somewhere” “you” need to get too.

The question, “How do I know if I am enlightened,” is also invalid and only maintains importance in the mind. What you ARE already, has nothing to do with effort or destination. Nor does it require a search to find itself. It already IS.

The one who requires this search sits on the same vehicle which perpetually and unconsciously drives it. You cannot even imagine it in your wildest of dreams, not to sound profound, but simply because imagination is not there … let alone a person or individual there claiming to experience this so called “enlightenment.”

At most, there is a spontaneous yet fundamental shift seen by no-one. Everything is taken away, all that you believed to be real from your sense of individual identity to your entire reality is wiped away. It is the end of all experience as you knew it. To top it off, nothing is put in it's place.

There is no longer even a naked perspective position of individuality, or any perspective for that matter experiencing anything. There is no where to go, nothing you can do and no-one to do it. There are no steps, stages, techniques, meditations, disciplines or practice's to get to that which already IS. There are no more stages to enlightenment than there are stages to getting wet while standing in the middle of the ocean. The only thing that keeps “enlightenment ” real to anyone lies in the constant and fixated “idea” that such an experience exists.

Q: So, “they have become Enlightened by knowing there is no enlightenment.”?

W: Not even that. There is no enlightenment period. nothing ,,,nada. No-one or no-thing is there to experience anything. Enlightenment does not exist in any way conceptually or unconceptually. No one is there to even claim that they are enlightened, transcended or illumined. W: There is no best way to say anything. You are speaking to an audience of conceptualizing, processing individuals with a “hope” and a “search” machine behind them. There is nothing to explain. Any attempt from anyone to explain themselves or make something “clearer” lies with the mind and it's foolishness. Now, if this is beneficial to you or not, well then, there you have it. Passion or “nonexistent passion” is only a product of the mind. Another gem of a concept with warm fuzzies behind it.

So are other foolish terms such as “love” “beauty.” and the on again and off again “NOW”…which everyone is trying to get too.

Even neti-neti,,,that which cannot be spoken of..is still, for the most part quickly defined as “something” in ones mind, with the ladder result of “meaningfulness” and/or “purpose.” All these terms have meaning, beneficial or not, only in the mind. This is the coal to fire. Most have fallen in love are deeply enamored by all these spiritual and mystical terms. The idea, if it is rooted within you, that you can give or offer guidance, hope or a “pointer” are all conceptual ideas which arise from self-importance and self-flattery.

So, what's the point of all this,,,nothing. There is no goal or attainment to reach. No-one is doing anything here. At most, all that can be said is that there is a sharing going on and no-one on either end to receive or give. Here, most do not like to speak of there own accord, naturally. People love to use quote and phrases here simply because they find merit and identify with them. They believe these phrases and quotes are important when they are only of use (tools) for the mind. There are no positions here and to believe that there are,,,well, you know the rest. You can agree with this or disagree and it make no difference. Anyone's approval or non-approval is not a requirement. There can be no reaction to a position not there.

W: May the above rest on no-one.

W: Any organization of or around what IS only fuels the minds need for certainty on both ends. Let alone an organization that certifies authority for or of “enlightenment.” This would be nothing more than a collective governing of individual and separate minds voicing there opinion and acquired knowledge to define that which is otherwise without definition. Nonsense. Behind this, you would have a bunch of other individual minds confirming , “yes, that what it is!”. The merry-go-round is deeply inbedded within the mind. Even when one thinks they got it, rest assured, they don't.

Q: How does one further their understanding, meditation, knowing or … ?

W: What we “think” we can understand only further imprisons. It's not a matter of understanding by anyone. Yes, It does happen of it's own accord ( not a mentally or “mystically” conceived enlightenment, but a simple shift seen by no-one) . So why is that before it can spontaneously happen, we believe that there is something we can do about it. “You” can't do anything about it simply because your minds conceptuality of it has turned it into “something” attainable. There is no attaining of that which already IS. You can't get to the chair when you are already sitting on. W: There is something much bigger going on here in relation to that which perpetually interprets and gives to us our illusionary notion of individual identity and existence. It is in this very dream that we maintain this constant “idea” that enlightenment brings about this incredible transformation. What becomes enlightened or transformed? Who is there to experience this enlightenment or great transformation? No-one is, this whole idea is mute. Which is why the mind and it's processed identity finds it so hard to conceive. After all, even if you accepted this from the perspective standpoint of the mind ( which would only be further disillusionment), what would you have left? Nothing. Well, this is not a very comforting or secure place or position to be in, so most will never take it any further. And it is the SAME mind which orchestrated all of it! The illusion of identity and existence, the presumed “search” out of the disillusionment and the fear put in place when such a confrontation is about to take place. The same mind which starts the search is also the same mind which perpetuates fear and therefore retaliation from within it own illusion. This is insanity. Most live in this world and only conceptualize, interpret, find individual importance and endeavor through this same vehicle and claim to everyone that they are “spiritual” or on the “path”.These are just more labels of ignorance. There is no such thing. All tools, techniques, meditations or disciplines find there place and need in the mind only. Anything that aids or supports the search to “arrive” are actually tools which confirm and strengthen the illusion to begin with. That which comes from the mind is the only identity which will ever require the search. That which is without identity ( not even “my awareness” or “my spirit”) is what is left. And no one can tell you what that is.

Q: “If there is no effort, no teaching concepts to aid, nothing to be strived towards this “shift”, how does this fundamental “shift” occur? A “shift” implying a before-shift and after-shift. i.e. points relative to time. Who is seeing the “shift seen by no-one”?

W: Nothing that is said here can help or improve the “search.” I have no answers for you and neither does anyone else. Words cannot touch or point too the unexpressable. It is the paralysis of words and dialect which unknowingly camouflage any understanding. ” At most, there is a spontaneous yet fundamental shift seen by no one,” cannot even touch it. Any verbal attempt in quantifying even a subtle hint is mute and out of the equation. When words are spoken, time is in place serving only the assumed purpose and identity of the mind. That being said, and not having any other means of communication in the manifested realm, the following will be said. W: There is no “how,” and as hard as it is for the mind to accept, there is no “why” either. How and why can be postulated by the mind in it's reasoning… but that is illusion only expressing itself.

There is NO-ONE seeing the shift, there is only SEEING.

And as much as this may rattle and rack the mind, everything simply IS.

If there is no-one seeing and all sense of identity and individuality is gone, then “who” would really want to go there? The mind sure doesn't. It's saturated in self importance and survival. The mind identity, and any ideas and concepts surrounding it of where it is on the it's “spiritual path,” would have to face self-annialation. This is terrifying for the mind and all of it's “self” investment in it's experience of life and assumed reality,,,, it's not easily put aside. It can't be told why it happens to some and not to others. That which is (absolute, source or whatever other name it's been given) is not waiting for you to come back to it either, it already IS, even in your illusion, whether you know it or not. No one is more favored or less favored either. The wino on the street has just as much favor as a monk studying 25 yrs in a Tibetan monastery. There are no higher planes of understanding or levels of anything. This is just more dramatic, romantic “additives” for someone not real. There is just THIS.

W: “The shift is seen by no-one” becomes a concept to the mind impossible to comprehend. Individuality does not permit it. It is a shift in perception but the perceiving quality belongs to no-one, let alone an identity or “persona” of any kind. A perceiving quality without a perceivable position (these are just words,,let's not make important concepts of them). But when and if this happens (nothing is really happening, only a happening for the mind) there will be no “you” becoming a part of “it” and no “it” becoming a part of “you.” It already “IS” and you will be that instantaneously without a ''you'' anywhere to know it. No-one is there realizing or recognizing anything.

There is no enlightenment for illusion. Why? Because it's illusion and that's all that is seen with no-one seeing it. It has no identity. That which had gone unnoticed now clearly sees without the perceptional and individual process and filter of the mind, and in this, perhaps, the mental computer “crashes.” W: How do you get there, again, there is no way of expressing that which is impossible to do. There are many books and teachings out there now which strongly advocate a “way.” This is simply the act of herding cattle… but in the mind. There is something being offered, a solution, and the mind predictably runs after it. You, or rather the perception of you, cannot get there. It's the illusion of a self encapsulated droplet of water floating in the middle of the ocean “TRYING” to get to the ocean. The droplet cannot realize, recognize, illuminize, awaken too or enlighten itself to this fact. How it is seen is unknown and trying to confirm a process or way to it only strengthens the search. W: It is upon this very bed of mental knowledge that we ask the question of,” how to escape?” The knowledge of you, the individual, along with the knowledge of that individuals existence is the “one” asking the question. This is upsurd. We are having a dream that we are imprisoned and believe, while still dreaming, that there is a way out!

And the answer to this is not that you have to wake up because THERE IS NO-ONE HAVING A DREAM.

Making such assumptions only asserts and prolongs the idea that “someone” needs to wake up. That someone needs to realize something and move beyond there mind. There is no waking up, no realization and no moving beyond the mind when the mind and it's perception of reality is nothing more than a dream. The conceptual yet persistent process in which we view the world is the foundational reference point through which everything is seen. It is what we believe we know as our reality. All that can be said is that no-one (any identity whatsoever) is there to see anything and again, that's saying too much.

W: THIS requires nothing, there is no need or lack for anything to make “right” or “improve”…it IS everything! There is no experience because ultimately there is no-one, nor experiencer there to experience anything. No one is telling you to give up anything or “do” anything. It is getting caught up as the “doer” doing something that enables the con to continue. The moment that experience belongs to you, that is, you're identified with what you are doing or trying to achieve then from that point on the mental position and manufacturing process behind it only continues it's course.

Q: That was a very enlightening post to read wsno1wup, that is if I may say the word “enlightening”with out having my foot shot off around here. Anyway how can we seriously think ,nothing can reflect nothing and yet still know with out a thought that it knows absolutely nothing?

W: Don't worry, no-one is going to shoot your foot off. Nothing can be reflected by no-thing ( absolute, source, etc.). There is no position from which a reflection can occure. Something ( an identity or at the very least, a sense of identity) has to be in place in order for even the idea of “reflecting” to exist, have any purpose, meaning to begin with. Even with this, the mind becons, “there has to be purpose or meaning in what IS”. The mind demands it, and does so while secretly defending its' deep seeded self importance and position. There is too much invested.W: No thought is required in what IS. That being said, niether is thought wiped away. There is this age-old conception that once what “IS” is seen by no one, then all thinking vanishes and we enter this 'no-thought” or “empty mind” state. That because thinking is synonoumous with identity or individuality, and since there is no longer any identity in what “IS” , then thought or thinking vanishes or ceases as well. Hogwash. There is still thought, it just no longer belongs to “anyone”. Thought still arises but there is no longer a “he” or “she' believing that they are doing the thinking.W: Every organ of the body has a rudimentary purpose. The organ of the brain ( which houses the conceptual “me” and “my thinking” or mind and body identification) is the only organ which which has had a reversal of roles ( throught the process entity). All that we see as experience begins and ends in this process. Even the idea that there has to be an ultimate, universal, sacred or omnipresent “purpose”. It just is'nt there. Q: Who am I?W: There is no identity. Although there is much talk about “this”, the “absolute” and no-thingness, we keep wanting to maintain it, keep it going. Just read the last page or so. It's toxicity (just a term) which derives from the mind. “Who” is trying to maintain this cycle? For everthing that is said, heard or read there is this insatiable want to maintain a posiiton and perpective of identity. Somehow, through language, we continually reinforce the mind and it's position. The questions are driven by the need for answers. There are no answers in that which “IS” because there are no more questions “Whether you agree or not is not important”…is not just something said to to shut you up. It's said by no-one because of it's absolute non-relevence. We are not One.

There is no we, you or I in IT.

It Just THIS, belonging to no-one but still IS all there is. There are no parts to the whole, there is no “part” concept in IT. No fragmentation. Quantum physics ( and the unmanifested/manifested quantum world of of atoms, quarks and bosons) can only “apparently” takes care of trying to INTERPRET that which IS. W: If you got that without anyone “getting it”, no posiiton, that's ALL it IS.

It has an unexplianable and transparent flavor. I'm not pointing to anything. Nor are there any positions between us. That which is self evident ( meaning no-self, no one) cannot point away from itself. There is no belief here. Nor faith. These are things only backed by the mind through it's acquired “knowledge” It's not a matter of hearing the right words or not. It's a more deeply seeded misinterpretation because we still believe, yet secretly, that we are the one “who” run the show. What most know of themselves is no more than an illusionary identification which instantaneously, directly and continuously derives from a core false interpretation. We are completely identified with but a tiny fraction of the whole illusion and we are oblivious to this core false interpreter in place.

W: All that is maintained here is that no-one wakes up. “But I ASK this wsno1wup for his 'realization” and his attitudes about that.” If this did happen, who would it be important too? It cannot be copied. There is no transformation of any kind.

There is no process to behold or to learn from. How can anyone learn from an experience that can only happen in the mind….which is illusion. This is organizing learning on the bed of ignorance. It has never happened. The “story” of such an event is so enticing and intriguing only for the mind but no such story exists. All that is seen is that there never was a story of “me” and “my existence” or an identity in place to escape. There is no enlightenment when it is seen that there could never be one. It is “seen” or “known” by no-one that nothing ever had to be done or realized. W: Yes, illusion can only aquire more illusion, more learning (more knowledge to add to it's self-image) But illusion cannot “see” itself in any way, as most experience and then claim that they “know.” Only more ignorance on top of the process.

W: “you are illusion and absolute in the same time”. From the minds perspective and position, this holds merit. It is only the “idea” of illusion and it's dualistic counter part, “absolute” that many still hold on to and then claim that they are both. Another concept. Absolute is neither, nor does it IDENTIFY with it.

W: One can say that absolute is the “all” and many have said it, for the most part though, as with everything said here, such words fall on ears and minds which interpret and conceptualize everything for someone presumably there.

The one asking the question ( ego, mind identity , or whatever) can do nothing, realize nothing or “see” nothing. There is nothing this perspective can do. It is completely helpless and has no resolve from it's solid self. It itself is a dream and it's belief that it can do something for itself is put out from the very foundation of the dream. We are simply washing dirt with more dirt.

W: “then: What would you answer: when asking your self: WHO AM I ?” No-one (yourself) is there or ever has been to ask the question. “Who” still NEEDS to know? All questioning arise through the fallacy of a “search” fueled by an existence and identify that only appears to be real.

Q: Who/what/how/why/when did cycling occur, samsara?

W: “How” that “happens”, is the “story”. Yes, but “who” cares. It is illusion. To whom does this story have importance? The story of “ourselves” has begun sometime time ago. The “story” and the importance placed on it is perpetual. The illusion or story flourishes from an ignorance that we are “someone” living a real life. Which is why most cannot drop the story, hence, there delusion is continual. Illusion will never drop itself. Something else arises and “sees” it all. Ando no-one or nothing ( book, teaching, guru or discipline) can tell “you” how to get “there”. Again, everything stems from individual interpretation unconsciously filtered through a continual process which is “me”.

Q: ” wsno1wup…You said 'There is no enlightenment when it is seen that there could never be one. It is “seen” or “known” by no-one that nothing ever had to be done or realized.”It's the 'no one' that 'determines' the nothing to be done or realised, and leaves no hook to hang the mind on, making it nearly unacceptable by the mind prior to understanding, that there is no one.Yet, there is this understanding posted by wsno1wup…..can you approximatly express how this understanding came about?

W: Do you want the whole story with all the “juicy” details?. I cant tell you “how” it came about. There is no “how”. The concept of how only sooths the apparent search. If we attempt to approach this with the mind, which is the only way an “approach”,”way” or “path” can exist in the first place, then we simply pull up more weeds. The mind remains anchored by it's own illusion that there is a way to “salvation”. “I can point to the door but you have to walk through it”, as it's so often referred to is impossible. All more mind nonsense. Simply because there is “no house”, nor hinges there of, in the first place. The house an it's structure only exists in the mind as illusion. How can any “door” exist when there is no house to begin with. No matter how close we believe we get, unless the mind an it's deeply rooted desire to find itself remains ( even a little bit),,, nothing will be known by no-one.W: Was there something that apparently occurred, yes (“apparently” is used only to say that the mind ,,,which is not real allows the “experience” to only appear real.) Nothing has really happened ,at most a re-direction with no-one piloting. Did it rock the very foundation of “my” identity and reality, yes. Did it have anything to do with the 'identity” of me. NO. Nothing transformed, transcended or broke free. It was just known by no-one after the apparent “experience”. It is so close, in fact, you are it,,all of it (without identity or individuality) yet, the mind makes it so far away. Touching “this” would be to touch your own death. Which is why most, through the vehicle of the mind and it survival mechanism built in, will never do so. Believing that there is a “way” is only entertainment for the mind, and as such a perpetual strengthening process.
W: No-one is available to judge anything. That is an interpretation led by the mind. Let's not start conceptualizing and identifying with that which are only words. No-one is the authority,,,not even the absolute,,,it's not interested. If you maintain a position, then all of this will only be to sooth or go against that position which will give forth to a “reaction” or strong sense of one. Everything conceptualized is an illusion. Conceptualizing breads position and retaliation. Like a teeter-totter we go up and down with “agreeing” or “non-agreeing” which is not required nor matters to no-one except a perspective position in place. May these words rest upon no-one.Q: What is the answer, then?W: ALL ANSWERS ARE ONLY INDICATORS…” There are no answers, let alone indicators to answers. Answers, only exist for “you”. That's why everyone chases them. Your sense of separations demands the question in the first place. There are no answers, except for the ones you project and make up in your “mind” or uphold as a potential for a possible “enlightenment”. If even your search for answers is threatened or taken away the mind and it's position eventually attack in it's own defense. There are no no questions in the “absolute”, yet we presume through our “questioning” and “actions” that there are such things. “The levels of attainment” are self serving because it continuously fuels a dualistic position. If there is anything within which carries even a hint of “position” it only continues to maintain it's own defiance within it's conceptual world.W: We can talk for a millennium, quote all the “great masters”, read all the spiritual books and we will never touch nor describe that which already “IS”. That which “IS” cannot be “experienced”. Even when the mind is “empty”. There is nothing to experience. No experience to experience. There is so much business surrounding the idea that “we” can arrive when there is no-where to get too. It's because we continue to conceptualize that which IS with our own story. In this way, we maintain a residue of something tangible, something which still maintains the importance of “me”, in that without identity whatsoeverQ: Why communicate with people, then at all? What's the intention? W: We need “reasons' and “whys” for everything. The mind is driven by it. Potentially, all that can be said is that there is a sharing. Only the “positioned” can intellectualize and make important or non-important there perspective stand points…reading, interpreting for themselves, giving importance or non-importance. There is NO “reason” nor “purpose” It's just sharing with no-one there nor here. No-one is there to “care” or “not care”. Those are irrelevant concerns and needs of the mind. There is benefit nor non-benefit If something is seen spontaneously by no-one. Nor is there any intention with anything said on these pages.

Q: Which question would you say is “deeper”: Who are You? or What are You? Is who you are, a compilation of what you are? Is what you are, a compilation of who you are? Is what you are, who you are?

W: Which is deeper? Does it really matter which one is “deeper”. Are we not just emphasizing more importance, something else to hold on too, for the one which only “believes” itself to be real in the first place? If you do get your answer, “who” is it that benefits? W: Yes, both questions are irrelevant. The question itself presupposes that there is importance or meaning for the the individual who “needs” to know. All questioning, all need for answers are rooted from the same vehicle which unknowingly drives them.

Every question, from the perpective position of the mind, only adds to itself more “spiritual knowlege” to it's growing aresenal of facts, systems, paths, levels, techniques and what not. The one who posses even a whisper of seeking only strengthens the resolve and continuation of it's own seperation. It is this seperation which believes it requires the search. That is all.

Q: Out of curiousity although the notion of “Who I am” and “self” are concepts in flux, and concepts without real grounding (or illusory, from my view). Are we saying here that a body does not exist? Everything does not exist? Nothing exists? Or that they are more signals with a dependant origin? Or ….? What precisely? Anyone?

W: As with the original question, existence or non-existence is also only important to the mind. Only concepts which further enhance our sense of individuality. That which “IS”, and that's saying too much, is not interested in existence or non-existence. Those are concerns which only resides with the minds need for individuality. There is no personal agenda or identity of any kind, “spiritual” or “universal”. Many love to believe that there is a continuance of themselves beyond what they believe to be there mortality. They want to hold on, at all costs, to something that will in some way maintain a sense of “me”, even spiritually. There is no “me” anywhere. There's a belief in an individual soul or spirit that eventually unifies with that which IS. This all arises from the minds deep need to maintain it's importance and survival but disguised and put forth as the all noble spiritual search or “path”.

We romanticize and entertain that which is without concepts and understanding with labels such as bliss, eternalness, beatitude, universal love and what not which only deepens an assumed identity in already chaotic cycle. There are no books, gurus, spiritual teacher or whatever other name they have given themselves, which can help or more enable one on the path they BELIEVE they are on. In discussion, when one is told to look for the “signpost” and does, even then they are simply enabling there search with something else to look for, another discipline or technique. Nothing can be realized from perspective position of illusion. Nothing. Only when there is something (the individual and it processed existence) reaching the “idea” of nothingness becomes attractive. It's only takes a residue or whisper of identity ( seperation) to enables a search to continue on.

Q: Are you sure?

W: “Who” is asking that question? “Who” are you addressing? “Who” is that needs to be certain of anything?

Your questions will always demand an answer which you will never receive from no one. There is no-one with no positions to be certain of anything. Whether you agree or disagree makes no difference, nor is it required. Agreeing or disagreeing will only add to your story. It will always come down to the point or filter of individual interpretation and thereby consistently fueling the ongoing premise and position of individuality. Statement: A true seeker is not after knowledge, he is after knowing. A true seeker has no desire, no ambition to have a goal. He is interested in the moment, this moment, now and here. His whole being is involved in living.

Q: Re OSHO!

W: Why is it that OSHO is responding when he has died some time ago? Osho is dead. Let him go already. Let's stay fresh without having to recite from our memories (or in this case copy and paste). That way we don't become like parrots conditionally and constantly babbling the same things over and over again. Prostituting knowledge from the past has no benefit. The moment Osho, Jesus or the Buddha said what they said and those word fell upon ears which could only interpret, then in that instant those words became knowledge. Something to memorize, cherish and hold dear….please. “Who” would benefit from that?W: A true seeker? As opposed to what, a not-so true seeker? Or worse yet, a false seeker? Seeking is seeking. The only function of seeking lies in maintaining the unconscious and perpetual merry-go-round of the mind itself. The moment anyone tells you you can get there, in that very moment, they have attempted to form a “game plan” on conceptualizing the unconceptual. This is upsurd and only finds merit within the individuals mind. It only makes the dream stronger..that is all. W: “A true seeker has no desire, no ambition to have a goal. He is interested in the moment, this moment, now and here. His whole being is involved in living.” Then why is he seeking? Understand that Osho had tens of thousands of follower, disciples or whatever you want to call them. No one knows for sure but perhaps if he had nothing to offer them in techniques or meditations they wouldn't have stuck around. If you cater and soothe the ego a little and give it hope and concepts then you have the perfect recipe for a a vast following. There is no such thing as a teacher-student relationship. It is only a need which exist and becomes incredibly important to the individual. It instantly assumes separation which is a misleading and hypocritical foundation to begin with. Nothing can be given to you (the belief of who you are) and there is nothing you can do to save yourself. Even the idea of mind is a formulated concept of itself. When that is seen with no-one seeing it, then that which you believed required a search will be seen by no-one as never lost.Statement: It does not matter when he died because all answers are only indicators, fingers pointing to the moon; hence we do not seek to follow in their footsteps, we seek what they sought…you are only interpreting it that way…all the Great Masters say essentially the same thing… !

W: The point of the OSHO comment was completely missed. Indicators, pointers and signposts? For whom? It is always best to speak form your own heart as you say. Now you have quoted Sri Ramana Maharshi. If you could no longer quote these “Great” masters, would you be ok with that? Everything, ALL your spiritual knowledge is of no importance or significance. It only helps to sustain the one who only believes itself to be on a spiritual path. This one or individual has nothing to do with what IS. It's has no importance or purpose of any kind, no where to be found in the equation. All that one sees, cherishes and packs away as important eventually dissolves and is replaced by nothing. The acquiring of knowledge only helps to facilitate further ignorance. As for your osho meditation series, throw it away.

And if you cant that should be a good indication that you have already established “value ” on it. What will you do when the answers you believe you have to get are not answered, move on to the next book, teacher or meditation series? If possible, see this…you will understand or realize nothing as long as you continue to use the filter of the mind to understand that which is WITHOUT the mind.

You will simply be busy conceptualizing that which is WITHOUT conceptuality. So, when most “try” to reach “enlightenment”, “illumination or “awakening” (which is not possible and only serves as an enamored idea to hold on to and chase) they tread on this futile path through the resolve and efforts of the mind….which is illusion to begin with. The irony of course, is that in the very act of using this unconscious vehicle, the separate individual automatically assume that there is “somewhere” too get too. And so the unconscious and perpetual cycle can only continue. Does it relly matter to you if he was “enlightened” or not? What does it have to do with you? You can do nothing with his “enlightenment”.

Q: Re intellectual knowledge.

W: ” “Intellectual knowledge” is the only destination for the “seeker”. All that “seeking” can provide you with is more knowledge, more weapons and tools for the aresanal. Seeking pre-supposes individuality and position. That we are separate from that which already IS. The root of every apparent “problem” belongs to the underlying separate individual still in place. Yet we continue to focus on them, give importance or non-importance, power or no power. We run around in the playground of ignorance and expect to find what we believe to be “god”. From this intellectual interpretation, meaning, purpose, path and god are dead concepts. This is the same as unconsciously focusing on that which is painted and not which is beyond that painted picture ( full of identity ridden emotions and conditioning)….which is a naked and neutral canvas… and that is saying to much.”Q: No1wakesup you seem to be saying that no one wakes up or that there is no hope of liberation or waking up. Any suggestions on awakening?W: ” That which seeks is that which HAS to immediately assume a separate position. From this perspective, the mental movie simply continues. All that is suggested here is that there is no individuality, no perspective position or identity whatsoever in that which is the whole. There is no room for it. Individuality is the minds dream. That's all. But if we look closely at this and accept it as truth, then, from the minds perspective anyway, it can become terrifying. It points to self annihilation. Conceptually or intellectually, who would want to face that. It is only another tool or defence mechanism that the mind loves to use in order to maintain it's own survival. Most go into these “insights” or “glimpse's” of the unknown and then from the same unconscious mechanism reingage and establish for themselves yet another “spiritual experience”….hence the movie of “me” and “my experience's” continues. The nothing becomes the something once again having purpose and meaning for the mind made individual only. Anyone at anytime can know liberation in it's totality. There are no favorites here. Be it the mass murderer or the one who has been on an apparent “path” for 30 yrs. It is not being said that liberation is impossible only that from the perspective position of an individualistic interpretation… it is not possible. The idea that you are getting closer is only flattering for the individual. You can not get “closer” to that which is already in place. Nor can you be given a “way” or a “how” to that which you already are,,, naked of individuality. There is a fundamental recognition where a potential for complete liberation can unfold. Yet no one can tell you how to get there. many love to think that “I can surely figure out a way”,,but it is all mind nonsense perpetrate by a deeper yet illusionary foundationof a solid and separate “me”. What most taste and immediately turn into experience is nothing more than what i call dualistic awareness. There is still the perceiver and the perceived, the observer and the observed. Both are STILL part of the minds interpretation and duality.

There are still 2 in the picture when there is no 2 anywhere. There is more movie than most would care to admit. I can not suggest or even “point” to a way.

Just as you can not tell or even “point” to a flower as to how” to grow. From the solid position of the mind, there is no fertilizer for cement. At most there can only be a sharing.Blessings”

Q: The problem is termanology, If I am talking about ego ……I am talking about ego according to MY understanding of ego . If you are trying to understand my viewpoint but don't know my concept of ego …. you will read my words and interpret them according to YOUR concept of ego …… Don't you think?

W: The limitations of language will always be there for a perspective position in place. It is this language which belongs to “'who” we believe we are. Nothing said here requires an understanding by what you conditionally believe or what your background is. It's all irrelevant simply because an “individual” holds it in high regard. Who's “understanding” of ego are you referring too? There is nothing to understand,,,all understanding is a requirement of ego or the separate individual. Beyond that there is only knowing, consciousness, etc. Concepts and view points belong to the mind and are held on to for dear life.

The goal is not for you to believe what is being said, nor am I “trying” to express my view point. That would only add “more' to what is still in place. At most we can simply discuss what is seemingly in the way and simultaneously realize that there is an unrelenting “identity” empowering process filtering it all.

Q: No1wakesup you said: “All that is suggested here is that there is no individuality, no perspective position or identity whatsoever in that which is the whole.” and “Anyone at anytime can know liberation in it's totality.” Anyone is a contradiction of no individuality this is the problem with words, don't you think?

W: “Anyone” is simply used in regards to the pre-determined conditional state of the apparent individual in place. There is no-one there to know anything. There is not “anyone” there to even say, ” I am enlightened”. When using the term “no-one”, it is suggested that there is no individuality, no separation, no solid “me” left over. Lights out… and yet there still remains a survival of a naked and transparent knowingness. There is no “you” on any level, 'spiritual” or otherwise knowing anything. It's simply knowing. There is no “what” to know.. only what IS.”

Q: On “Truth is known only by identity with it, and not by 'knowing about' it.”

W: ” “Whom” is it that has to be there in order for identification to take happen in the first place? Identification is only possible by “someone” still there to identify with something else. Before liberation, this is seen as a series of recognitions,,,hence, still dualistic in nature. In the end..or when the bottom of the bucket breaks threw,,, there is no-one there, no individuality to know or identify with anything.

All is as it IS.”

Q: Thoughts on “For example…as Baker Roshi put it, “Enlightenment is an accident. Meditation makes you accident prone.”

W: “Yes, enlightenment is acausal and spontaneous, so the egoic self cannot make it happen threw any effort of it own. But what seems like making space for enlightenment to occur or even believing that meditation makes enlightenment accident prone is never what it seems. Some have been on the “path” all there lives and nothing has happened while others have treaded on a similar “spiritual” path and a shift of sorts occurred. In those instances where true liberation unfolded,,it is known that such an event occurred not due to all the effort and spiritual work,, but instead occurred completely INSPITE of it. For those who do not see this, there “experience” was that of a glimpse or momentary wakefulness( dual awareness). There is a vast difference between being aware and liberation. The former continues on with the movie, character in toe, while the ladder reflects the ending of the film. Blessings.”

Q: Though there is no not a “whom”, not even a “what” there is identification or unity, of one-ness with…Awareness (truth) aware of itself; Self-identification. So where does this self-identification go once it is TRULY recognized. Is the recognizer still there and in place to continue on with it's distinguishing abilities after this is seen?? Is there still even a hint of a perspective perception or has everything, you existence, beliefs, spiritual journey or path and identity totally dissolved? ( not real questions for you to answer,,only for reflection).

W: What you describe is more in line with a dualistic experience….where a position is maintained and still kept in place. That is, events leading up to a potential for liberation and not liberation itself. “Awareness, aware of itself; Self-identification” This is only a minute fraction of the apparent journey leading up to what we fear as only a conceptual ending of the all important “me”.

Q: On Truth.

Any truth, if held in high regard, is only conceptual.

Especially a truth which is attached to the idea of liberation. This truth has a story behind it, a definite position, creed and belief structure….something to strive and fight for. Truth as opposed to what… untruth or falseness? It only seems that there is truth and falseness (illusion)when there is neither. As all duality, truth and illusion fight on the surface of that which simply IS. The “journey” to find “truth' is perpetuated by the notion that we lie dualistically,,,,that is, in the opposing position, when neither is the case.

“Well”, I can hear someone saying, “isn't there an ultimate truth beyond all time, space and conceptuality??”

Well, again, who wants to know? It's sure not consciousness,,,IT ALREADY IS.

Totally complete and fully adequate. Inadequacy breeds need which stems from separateness and individuality All there IS all there IS. No perspective position can be there cause all it will do is interpret it. The nothing (the one) becomes something ( the “two”) continuously.